Meeting 1 - Part I

Here's the IRC log of the Jaws Meeeting August 31st, part One:

ago 31 16:35:01 <nicobn>	MEETING START
ago 31 16:35:08 <nicobn>	who's here ? name and email please :-p
ago 31 16:35:15 <nicobn>	Nicolas Bérard-Nault (nicobn@php.net)
ago 31 16:35:27 <PetrPulc>	Petr Pulc <petr@deelay.cz>
ago 31 16:35:51 <thekad>	(for a while) Jorge A Gallegos <kad@blegh.net>
ago 31 16:35:52 <pabl0>	Pablo Fischer (pablo@pablo.com.mx)
ago 31 16:36:11 <Ali>	Ali Fazelzade afz@dev-code.com
ago 31 16:36:18 <AmirMohammad>	Amir Mohammad Saied <amir@php.net>
ago 31 16:36:46 <nicobn>	pabl0, I propose that you preside the reunion
ago 31 16:36:55 <nicobn>	so you'll have to guide us through all the points to discuss
ago 31 16:36:58 <nicobn>	is that okay with you ?
ago 31 16:37:07 <pabl0>	ok
ago 31 16:37:13 <nicobn>	good
ago 31 16:37:15 <nicobn>	what is #1 ?
ago 31 16:37:39 <pabl0>	the first point is about Website server (hosting for web, svn and mailing lists)
ago 31 16:37:53 <pabl0>	Imho we should decide where to be
ago 31 16:38:05 <thekad>	agenda is here: http://www.mail-archive.com/jaws-dev@forge.novell.com/msg00935.html
ago 31 16:38:07 <imcsk8>	Ivan Chavero <ichavero@uach.mx>
ago 31 16:38:14 <pabl0>	to continue with Meebey's (Mirco Bauer) server
ago 31 16:38:14 <nicobn>	yeah... well right now we have the hosting for free
ago 31 16:38:18 <pabl0>	yep
ago 31 16:38:30 <pabl0>	however, there are two problems no
ago 31 16:38:33 <pabl0>	well, 3
ago 31 16:38:39 <pabl0>	but most important just 2
ago 31 16:38:58 <pabl0>	1. We (neither Jonathan or me) have access to the LDAP server to create/update the accounts of developers
ago 31 16:39:16 <pabl0>	by this I mean we CANNOT create the accounts of new developers
ago 31 16:39:24 <pabl0>	we need to send a mail to Mirco and wait for a reply
ago 31 16:39:31 <pabl0>	sometimes it takes 1 week, sometimes a month
ago 31 16:39:58 <pabl0>	the other problem (in the last days) is that the server have some problems
ago 31 16:40:08 <pabl0>	it dies ocassionaly
ago 31 16:40:52 <PetrPulc>	and the 3rd problem?
ago 31 16:41:11 <pabl0>	I forgot it :P
ago 31 16:41:15 <pabl0>	ahh
ago 31 16:41:16 <imcsk8>	hahaha
ago 31 16:41:26 <pabl0>	if we want to create new subdomains
ago 31 16:41:28 <pabl0>	like for example
ago 31 16:41:31 <pabl0>	repository.jaws-project.com
ago 31 16:41:36 <pabl0>	we need to wait
ago 31 16:41:50 <nicobn>	basically, it's unreliable and it slows us down
ago 31 16:41:54 <pabl0>	until Mirco configures the web proxy (yes, our vserver is proxied)
ago 31 16:42:26 <pabl0>	so, one of the option I've been thinking about is
ago 31 16:42:39 *	ion (n=ion@148.223.46.69) ha entrado en #jaws
ago 31 16:42:45 <pabl0>	1. Have our own vserver, which will require $$$ (who's going to pay for it?)
ago 31 16:42:49 <Ali>	hi ion
ago 31 16:43:10 <pabl0>	2. Move the dev part, at least the SVN stuff to googlecode (I don't think they will have network/permission problems)
ago 31 16:43:13 *	ion says hello!
ago 31 16:43:24 <pabl0>	3. Look for a sponsor (which we will discuss it later)
ago 31 16:44:17 <AmirMohammad>	--snip--
ago 31 16:44:21 <pabl0>	comments?
ago 31 16:44:23 <pabl0>	suggestions?
ago 31 16:44:29 <imcsk8>	pabl0: the svn stuff is on novell forge aint it?
ago 31 16:44:42 <ion>	imcsk8, is on meebey servers
ago 31 16:44:46 <AmirMohammad>	GoogleCode has some restrictions for us (Iranian I mean), we can't download anything from it ...
ago 31 16:44:47 <pabl0>	yes
ago 31 16:44:49 <pabl0>	ah no
ago 31 16:44:50 <AmirMohammad>	block by IP I mean
ago 31 16:44:54 <pabl0>	the SVN stuff is on Mirco's server
ago 31 16:44:57 <PetrPulc>	google code is a good service, but i'm not so sure, if you will be able to set right permissions
ago 31 16:44:58 <pabl0>	which is over SSH
ago 31 16:45:01 <pabl0>	in a different port
ago 31 16:45:05 <pabl0>	iirc 1008
ago 31 16:45:18 <thekad>	pabl0: there are several providers that can help us... we started with sf.net I think, then moved to novell forge... there is launchpad and google code
ago 31 16:45:35 <pabl0>	I like GoogleCode
ago 31 16:45:51 <pabl0>	but if they block some regions I wouldn't like that
ago 31 16:45:57 <Ali>	i not agree with GoogleCode
ago 31 16:45:59 <thekad>	yeah but you have the restriction AmirMohammad is commenting right now
ago 31 16:46:06 <thekad>	so that's not an option
ago 31 16:46:08 <pabl0>	at least we have 2 good mid-eastern developers
ago 31 16:46:14 <pabl0>	and 1 north corean
ago 31 16:46:15 <nicobn>	the best solution would be to have our own server
ago 31 16:46:28 <PetrPulc>	yeah, for smaler projects... why not to use google code; but i'm not sure if jaws is small project
ago 31 16:46:33 <thekad>	it would either be our own server, or a free service but not in the US
ago 31 16:46:36 <pabl0>	nicobn, yep, the problem here comes by: Who's going to pay for it.. . or who's going to sponsor it?
ago 31 16:46:51 <nicobn>	yes... that's the problem
ago 31 16:47:05 <PetrPulc>	we can't hold it from our money
ago 31 16:47:10 <imcsk8>	we could use gluch server for the svn stuff
ago 31 16:47:12 <PetrPulc>	(for long)
ago 31 16:47:25 <imcsk8>	i administer it and it's on the university of chihuahua
ago 31 16:47:49 <pabl0>	Ok, but which services you offer? and which ports?
ago 31 16:48:06 <pabl0>	also, in case you leave the university job, who's going to help us? :-)
ago 31 16:48:21 <imcsk8>	which ports do you want, i have from 1 - to 65535 :-P
ago 31 16:48:27 <pabl0>	70000 :P
ago 31 16:48:30 <nicobn>	a cheap dedicated server is like 69$ per month
ago 31 16:48:31 <ion>	yes, that's also a problem, I can provide a server too, but if I'm gone the server is gone
ago 31 16:48:52 <nicobn>	do you plan on quitting your jobs ?
ago 31 16:48:53 <pabl0>	nicobn,  that would be fine, but how good/stalbe is their service?
ago 31 16:48:55 <ion>	Launchpad looks sexy
ago 31 16:48:56 <imcsk8>	hahaha
ago 31 16:48:58 <thekad>	that's right... I personally checked out launchpad a while ago and it did look good
ago 31 16:49:02 <nicobn>	pabl0: the service is good
ago 31 16:49:19 <imcsk8>	but what happens if launchpad goes away??
ago 31 16:49:29 <ion>	imcsk8, ubunto goes away
ago 31 16:49:29 <PetrPulc>	no it will not!
ago 31 16:49:34 <pabl0>	yes
ago 31 16:49:38 <thekad>	I personally like integrated services such as SF/Novell/LP/Whatsisname
ago 31 16:49:48 <pabl0>	thekad, me too
ago 31 16:49:53 <pabl0>	but SF sucks
ago 31 16:49:56 <imcsk8>	hahaha
ago 31 16:49:57 <pabl0>	Novell,.. forget it
ago 31 16:49:58 <thekad>	hahaha
ago 31 16:49:59 <AmirMohammad>	oh, Mr. Shuttleworth won't do that :P
ago 31 16:50:08 <pabl0>	LP.. we should take a read of their services
ago 31 16:50:11 <thekad>	they have SVN now, at least :p
ago 31 16:50:17 <imcsk8>	i like launchpad
ago 31 16:50:32 <pabl0>	also, where does Ubuntu has his CVS/SVN server?
ago 31 16:50:53 <PetrPulc>	me too
ago 31 16:50:53 <thekad>	but
ago 31 16:51:13 <thekad>	LP uses bazaar
ago 31 16:51:13 <thekad>	not svn
ago 31 16:51:15 <thekad>	which is a lil' bit diff
ago 31 16:51:16 <PetrPulc>	ou... problem
ago 31 16:51:25 <nicobn>	yep... problem
ago 31 16:51:25 <thekad>	though I don't think it should be a problem to get accustomed to it
ago 31 16:51:26 <ion>	I guess bzr can import svn
ago 31 16:51:26 <nicobn>	it's a problem if we can't import history
ago 31 16:51:28 <thekad>	we can import
ago 31 16:51:28 <PetrPulc>	yep
ago 31 16:51:29 <thekad>	already asked that
ago 31 16:52:06 <nicobn>	and it's a big no no if we have to relearn something just for the sake of it
ago 31 16:52:06 <thekad>	there's a script svn2bzr
ago 31 16:52:10 <thekad>	is just something diff, in the meaning that is a distributed scm
ago 31 16:52:12 <thekad>	like git and monotone i think
ago 31 16:52:25 <pabl0>	hm
ago 31 16:52:41 <pabl0>	the other idea would be to ask for sponsor..
ago 31 16:52:52 <pabl0>	and have our own server
ago 31 16:53:25 <nicobn>	I don't think it's appropriate to discuss the merits of different version control systems tonight
ago 31 16:53:25 <ion>	well all version control software are basically the same, checkout -> commit 
ago 31 16:53:25 <ion>	so
ago 31 16:53:25 <thekad>	yeah, not a big deal, I mean, we should be more concerned about the TOS from LP
ago 31 16:53:25 <thekad>	or anyotherservice
ago 31 16:53:25 <nicobn>	yes
ago 31 16:53:25 <AmirMohammad>	a big NO for a distributed SCM/VCS
ago 31 16:53:42 <nicobn>	that's exactly why we should not discuss this
ago 31 16:53:45 <nicobn>	so let's stick with SVN
ago 31 16:53:52 <AmirMohammad>	yep
ago 31 16:53:54 <imcsk8>	agree i like svn
ago 31 16:54:02 <pabl0>	yes, with version system we will keep with SVN
ago 31 16:54:13 <nicobn>	who could have a server ?
ago 31 16:54:16 <nicobn>	ion and ...
ago 31 16:54:36 <thekad>	imcsk8
ago 31 16:54:38 <nicobn>	ok
ago 31 16:54:43 <nicobn>	well if you both provide a server
ago 31 16:54:47 <ion>	well, we can discuss that all night/day
ago 31 16:55:01 <nicobn>	chances are that you both quit your jobs at the same time are mince
ago 31 16:55:07 <imcsk8>	hahaa
ago 31 16:55:09 <nicobn>	so we could replicate the servers and bingo
ago 31 16:55:29 <pabl0>	I don't have a problem in asking my future job (some of them would like)
ago 31 16:55:41 <pabl0>	but we go back
ago 31 16:55:45 <pabl0>	with quiting the job
ago 31 16:55:51 <ion>	also the problem is to maintain each service, I mean , svn/bzr, trac, etc up2date
ago 31 16:56:12 <nicobn>	if we replicate we don't have any problems
ago 31 16:56:18 <ion>	If there's some services that already do that
ago 31 16:56:26 <nicobn>	yes ion has a point
ago 31 16:56:31 <ion>	I think we should evaluate Launchpad
ago 31 16:56:35 <nicobn>	ok
ago 31 16:56:38 <thekad>	agreed
ago 31 16:56:44 <nicobn>	so the conclusion of this point is
ago 31 16:56:47 <pabl0>	agreed
ago 31 16:56:54 <nicobn>	ion and imcsk8 can provide servers
ago 31 16:56:59 <nicobn>	but we should evaluate some other services
ago 31 16:57:05 <ion>	ok
ago 31 16:57:06 <nicobn>	like Launchpad
ago 31 16:57:07 <ion>	closed then
ago 31 16:57:10 <nicobn>	who takes care of that ?
ago 31 16:57:33 <nicobn>	I will
ago 31 16:57:34 <ion>	I can evaluate Launchapd
ago 31 16:57:41 <nicobn>	alright :-p ion evaluates lauchpad
ago 31 16:57:43 <nicobn>	I take care of google code
ago 31 16:57:52 <pabl0>	ion, you think the drunky guy (you know who I'm talking about) would sponsor a server? or the spanish guy? :P
ago 31 16:57:57 <nicobn>	contact the ML with your findings asap ion
ago 31 16:57:59 <AmirMohammad>	gna, savannah ...?
ago 31 16:58:14 <thekad>	pabl0: I thought the same...
ago 31 16:58:17 <pabl0>	lol
ago 31 16:58:22 <imcsk8>	also i'm renting a server on canada
ago 31 16:58:25 <ion>	nicobn, that's another choice
ago 31 16:58:27 <ion>	kajshdkjashd
ago 31 16:58:34 <ion>	pabl0, that's another choice
ago 31 16:58:43 <pabl0>	yep
ago 31 16:58:46 <nicobn>	imcsk8: what company ?
ago 31 16:58:48 <thekad>	we don't loose anything asking
ago 31 16:58:53 <pabl0>	nope
ago 31 16:58:56 <pabl0>	only our reputation
ago 31 16:59:00 <pabl0>	and ion will do that
ago 31 16:59:00 <imcsk8>	it's called esecuredata
ago 31 16:59:01 <pabl0>	:-P
ago 31 16:59:01 <ion>	I will go, first with an integrated project management service
ago 31 16:59:04 <thekad>	I dunno which one of you is more familiar with him, ion or pabl0
ago 31 16:59:10 <pabl0>	ion ion!
ago 31 16:59:12 <imcsk8>	that's where i'm migrating some of my clients
ago 31 16:59:17 <thekad>	ok
ago 31 16:59:21 <pabl0>	so
ago 31 16:59:29 <ion>	I can talk with sandino and alobbs
ago 31 16:59:31 <pabl0>	1. Move to ion or imcks8' servers
ago 31 16:59:44 <pabl0>	2. Take a look to LP and Google Code, or other services
ago 31 16:59:56 <pabl0>	3. Pay our server (a shared one)
ago 31 17:00:05 <pabl0>	4. Get an sponsor with our own vserver
ago 31 17:00:14 <pabl0>	ion, that would be cool
ago 31 17:00:32 <thekad>	I think swapping 1 & 2 would fit more with our goals
ago 31 17:00:36 <imcsk8>	ah
ago 31 17:00:44 <thekad>	I mean, having a long-lasting service
ago 31 17:00:52 <imcsk8>	also i could setup a vserver on my hosting 
ago 31 17:01:02 <nicobn>	we have to think big rather than small
ago 31 17:01:06 <pabl0>	that's another option
ago 31 17:01:18 <thekad>	that could go with "1. Move to ion or imcks8' servers"
ago 31 17:01:29 <pabl0>	ahh, and if some of you get a sponsor, I think ion or me have a problem placing a banner
ago 31 17:01:36 <pabl0>	or a link
ago 31 17:01:45 <thekad>	have a problem? or don't have a problem?
ago 31 17:01:54 <ion>	I don't
ago 31 17:01:58 <pabl0>	don't
ago 31 17:01:59 <pabl0>	:P
ago 31 17:02:00 <thekad>	ok
ago 31 17:02:01 <pabl0>	sorry
ago 31 17:02:01 <imcsk8>	oh
ago 31 17:02:04 <imcsk8>	ahhahaha
ago 31 17:02:38 <thekad>	gotta leave you now guys
ago 31 17:02:38 <nicobn>	alright
ago 31 17:02:44 <PetrPulc>	what about making paypal account for donations?
ago 31 17:02:49 <nicobn>	imcsk8 could you setup a test server ?
ago 31 17:02:59 <nicobn>	ion, idem ?
ago 31 17:03:09 <pabl0>	PetrPulc, I really don't trust in donations :P
ago 31 17:03:12 <imcsk8>	a vserver or just the svn access?
ago 31 17:03:19 <nicobn>	vserver
ago 31 17:03:19 <thekad>	my vote goes to LP, unless we have our own server :p
ago 31 17:03:21 <pabl0>	vserver
ago 31 17:03:27 <pabl0>	ok
ago 31 17:03:29 <ion>	vserver
ago 31 17:03:36 <thekad>	g'bye
ago 31 17:03:40 <ion>	+1 for LP
ago 31 17:04:18 *	thekad (n=94f5fd96@materias.utags.edu.mx) ha abandonado #jaws
ago 31 17:04:32 <pabl0>	k, then
ago 31 17:04:41 <ion>	next
ago 31 17:04:44 <PetrPulc>	LaunchPad is good and will be there for pretty long time (because of Canonical)
ago 31 17:05:04 <nicobn>	ok good
ago 31 17:05:10 <pabl0>	the summary of point #1 would be to look for a sponsor (a vserver), move to ion/imcks8, LP
ago 31 17:05:12 <pabl0>	ok?
ago 31 17:05:19 <nicobn>	good
ago 31 17:05:19 <PetrPulc>	y
ago 31 17:05:22 <nicobn>	next point
ago 31 17:05:27 <AmirMohammad>	yep
ago 31 17:05:32 <Ali>	ok
ago 31 17:05:41 <pabl0>	# Documentation
ago 31 17:05:41 <pabl0>	   1. Format
ago 31 17:05:41 <pabl0>	   2. Documentation or cookbook?
ago 31 17:05:58 <imcsk8>	both?
ago 31 17:06:06 <pabl0>	for point 2.2?
ago 31 17:06:16 <pabl0>	I'd like both really
ago 31 17:06:22 <pabl0>	many big projects have both
ago 31 17:06:27 <PetrPulc>	y, it should by really usefull
ago 31 17:06:28 <imcsk8>	yup i'd like both
ago 31 17:06:48 <pabl0>	now, a brief summary of our current documentation..
ago 31 17:06:59 <pabl0>	currently we have very clean and nice code
ago 31 17:07:05 <pabl0>	howerver, we lack of documentation
ago 31 17:07:18 <nicobn>	I'm working on that for my branch
ago 31 17:07:20 <ion>	https://launchpad.net/jaws
ago 31 17:07:23 <nicobn>	in docbook format
ago 31 17:07:36 <pabl0>	I'd say we only have documented 10% of our code
ago 31 17:07:45 <pabl0>	i know that's a horrible task for many developers
ago 31 17:08:04 <imcsk8>	i think that we need user documentation and developer documuentation
ago 31 17:08:04 <pabl0>	who likes to write documentation if we know where the bugs/tricks are
ago 31 17:08:10 <pabl0>	imcsk8, 100% agree
ago 31 17:08:30 <pabl0>	so I was thinking that after releasing 0.8 start working on the documentation
ago 31 17:08:40 <pabl0>	I'd try to do my best
ago 31 17:08:53 <imcsk8>	here at the university i'm gonna put some students to write user documentation
ago 31 17:09:02 <pabl0>	haha
ago 31 17:09:08 <AmirMohammad>	lol
ago 31 17:09:09 <nicobn>	in Docbook format
ago 31 17:09:15 <PetrPulc>	i'll try to help you... :)
ago 31 17:09:26 <pabl0>	the format, I was thinking in docbook or cfm (iir that's the extension)
ago 31 17:09:35 <pabl0>	however, docbook is the most used
ago 31 17:09:48 <pabl0>	and we can print it like an O'Reilly book
ago 31 17:09:53 <imcsk8>	i don't really care i'm not doing it :-P
ago 31 17:10:05 <AmirMohammad>	+1 for TeX :P
ago 31 17:10:13 <imcsk8>	hahaha
ago 31 17:10:23 <pabl0>	AmirMohammad, I've some friends that would choose that
ago 31 17:10:28 *	pabl0 thinks Gunnar
ago 31 17:10:36 <imcsk8>	hahaha
ago 31 17:10:44 <imcsk8>	pabl0: i thought of him too hahaha
ago 31 17:10:47 <pabl0>	haha
ago 31 17:10:47 <nicobn>	I've already started using Docbook for Jaws 2
ago 31 17:10:54 <AmirMohammad>	pabl0: I wrote my lab thesis using LaTeX
ago 31 17:11:03 <pabl0>	nicobn is writing the documentation of jaws2
ago 31 17:11:11 <pabl0>	so when we release jaws2 we will have documentation completed
ago 31 17:11:12 <nicobn>	nicobn is doing everything in Jaws 2
ago 31 17:11:18 <pabl0>	yes
ago 31 17:11:27 <pabl0>	he started the Jaws2 branch
ago 31 17:11:35 <AmirMohammad>	but you know, when I was googling for some LaTeX manuals, I alway got that damned "THIS WEBSITE IS FILTERED"
ago 31 17:11:38 <AmirMohammad>	:)
ago 31 17:11:43 <pabl0>	AmirMohammad, lol
ago 31 17:11:56 <pabl0>	so going back to documentation
ago 31 17:12:00 <pabl0>	where to start it?
ago 31 17:12:02 <pabl0>	a wiki?
ago 31 17:12:02 <nicobn>	let's use docbook and be done with it
ago 31 17:12:07 <pabl0>	directly to svn/docbook?
ago 31 17:12:08 <nicobn>	not a wiki
ago 31 17:12:16 <nicobn>	forget the wiki, I tried that with Jaws 2
ago 31 17:12:20 <nicobn>	it's unmanageable
ago 31 17:12:21 <pabl0>	heh
ago 31 17:12:25 *	imcsk8 likes wikis :S
ago 31 17:12:31 <nicobn>	yeah well wikis are useful
ago 31 17:12:34 <nicobn>	but NOT FOR THAT
ago 31 17:12:39 <PetrPulc>	agree
ago 31 17:12:49 <nicobn>	Docbook is the way to go
ago 31 17:12:56 <PetrPulc>	yes...
ago 31 17:13:04 <pabl0>	once (or maybe before) we release 0.8
ago 31 17:13:14 <pabl0>	I'll open a new milestone (I think it's already open)
ago 31 17:13:23 <pabl0>	and each ticket of it will be about each section
ago 31 17:13:23 <nicobn>	there's a separated rep. in SVN for documentation
ago 31 17:13:43 <pabl0>	and for spanish users who are here.. the documentation will be WRITTEN in english
ago 31 17:13:46 <pabl0>	once we finish it
ago 31 17:13:50 <pabl0>	translators are wellcome
ago 31 17:14:01 <pabl0>	I mean, translating documentation is not a priority
ago 31 17:14:05 <nicobn>	yes, english... that's obvious
ago 31 17:14:06 <PetrPulc>	true
ago 31 17:14:28 <nicobn>	good
ago 31 17:14:28 <ion>	ok
ago 31 17:14:29 <nicobn>	so
ago 31 17:14:36 <nicobn>	docbook documentation in a separate part of the repository
ago 31 17:14:38 <pabl0>	I'd try to start closing the tickets
ago 31 17:14:48 <pabl0>	now, we agree in having documentation and a cookbook?
ago 31 17:14:56 <imcsk8>	docbook for the api documentation??
ago 31 17:15:07 <nicobn>	api documentation is automagic
ago 31 17:15:11 <imcsk8>	ok
ago 31 17:15:15 <nicobn>	http://api.jaws-project.com/jaws2
ago 31 17:15:19 <nicobn>	see it for yourself :-p
ago 31 17:15:34 <pabl0>	the api is autogenerated (at least for jaws2, I'll set it up for Jaws 0.x)
ago 31 17:15:44 <pabl0>	when to write the cookbook?
ago 31 17:15:46 <nicobn>	the cookbook should be part  of the Jaws manual
ago 31 17:15:54 <pabl0>	the same time we write the manual?
ago 31 17:15:55 <nicobn>	the manual is a set of books
ago 31 17:16:08 <pabl0>	the cookbook is usefull but not a priority
ago 31 17:16:17 <PetrPulc>	hard to say...
ago 31 17:16:29 <imcsk8>	the coockbook could be a wiki
ago 31 17:16:30 <PetrPulc>	for users it is very usefull
ago 31 17:16:30 <nicobn>	in the manual you have an user book, a cookbook, a developer book
ago 31 17:16:33 <pabl0>	if the documentation/manual is very well explained there's no really need for a cookbook
ago 31 17:16:42 <nicobn>	nah... NO DOCUMENTATION IN THE WIKI
ago 31 17:16:44 <nicobn>	period :-p
ago 31 17:16:46 <imcsk8>	hahahaha
ago 31 17:16:47 <ion>	I agree with cookbook in wiki
ago 31 17:16:57 <nicobn>	wikis were not created for documenting !
ago 31 17:17:08 <nicobn>	you can't have a table of contents
ago 31 17:17:13 <nicobn>	sections, chapters, etc
ago 31 17:17:14 <imcsk8>	the coockbooks were created for cooking
ago 31 17:17:14 <pabl0>	ion, yes, but when to start the cookbook?
ago 31 17:17:18 <nicobn>	call it cookwiki but not cookbook
ago 31 17:17:52 <PetrPulc>	start after Jaws2 testing..
ago 31 17:18:12 <nicobn>	anyway,for now, let's say that the documentation is docbook
ago 31 17:18:13 <imcsk8>	i see the cookbook like this: http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page
ago 31 17:18:30 <ion>	pabl0, I guess we only need to write the index to start some kind of book/cook/tips&tricks/installation/blah
ago 31 17:19:59 <pabl0>	ok
ago 31 17:20:13 <pabl0>	then I'll open a ticket for each documentation section
ago 31 17:20:41 <pabl0>	this is for Jaws 0.x
ago 31 17:20:42 <pabl0>	ok?
ago 31 17:20:52 <nicobn>	goof
ago 31 17:20:52 <pabl0>	or questions?, suggestions?
ago 31 17:20:54 <nicobn>	good*
ago 31 17:20:56 <pabl0>	goof goof!
ago 31 17:20:59 <nicobn>	for Jaws 2, it's another story
ago 31 17:21:03 <pabl0>	yep
ago 31 17:21:06 <pabl0>	so, next point
ago 31 17:21:13 <nicobn>	the documentation is written at the same time the code is written 
ago 31 17:21:22 <nicobn>	yep, next point
ago 31 17:21:36 <pabl0>	New developers and branch managers
ago 31 17:22:03 <AmirMohammad>	I've no idea regarding docs as I'm by far sure none of you will never ask me to write in English :P
ago 31 17:22:17 <pabl0>	ok, I've some new developers in the queue
ago 31 17:22:23 <PetrPulc>	now a real problem to add (as discussed in #1)
ago 31 17:22:39 <nicobn>	and we need a way to select new committers
ago 31 17:22:51 <nicobn>	I proposed a private ML to pabl0 this summer
ago 31 17:22:58 <nicobn>	with a vote
ago 31 17:23:01 <nicobn>	+1 or -1
ago 31 17:23:06 <nicobn>	(0 for abstentions)
ago 31 17:23:07 <AmirMohammad>	hey, we really need a little of bureaucracy for accepting new devs
ago 31 17:23:22 <nicobn>	we need to make the process more formal, at least
ago 31 17:23:27 <pabl0>	AmirMohammad, for example?
ago 31 17:23:35 <pabl0>	I want more devels
ago 31 17:23:47 <pabl0>	but not a damned bureaucracy like Debian
ago 31 17:23:56 <nicobn>	we simply need to evaluate them before
ago 31 17:24:01 <PetrPulc>	what about making some test or something?
ago 31 17:24:17 <AmirMohammad>	pabl0: yeah, but I mean it would be nice if we assign a dev to a new developer, having two eyes on his changesets ...
ago 31 17:24:18 <pabl0>	 nicobn with their patches they send?
ago 31 17:24:29 <nicobn>	yes, i.e.
ago 31 17:24:30 <pabl0>	AmirMohammad, well yes
ago 31 17:24:36 <pabl0>	I'm agree with that
ago 31 17:24:41 <AmirMohammad>	pabl0: and rejecting him if he's really annoying, some QA stuff I mean
ago 31 17:25:03 <nicobn>	yes
ago 31 17:25:12 <nicobn>	so briefly, we create a new ML
ago 31 17:25:14 <PetrPulc>	ok, agree
ago 31 17:25:21 <nicobn>	where all current committers vote on new commiters
ago 31 17:25:32 <pabl0>	ok
ago 31 17:25:40 <nicobn>	and karma is given separately for each branch
ago 31 17:25:42 <pabl0>	so, I'll ask for a new ML
ago 31 17:25:45 <pabl0>	a private one
ago 31 17:25:49 <AmirMohammad>	with no veto ability :)
ago 31 17:26:03 <pabl0>	for branch managers
ago 31 17:26:15 <pabl0>	I'm getting crazy sometimes
ago 31 17:26:31 <pabl0>	need to take a look to the last stable branch (like 0.7)
ago 31 17:26:34 <pabl0>	and prepare its releases
ago 31 17:26:43 <PetrPulc>	yes, accepting of new member by all comunity, not one person...
ago 31 17:26:45 <pabl0>	I'd like to have branch managers
ago 31 17:27:00 <nicobn>	I'm proposing myself for Jaws 2 :-o
ago 31 17:27:02 <pabl0>	that they take care of it
ago 31 17:27:15 <pabl0>	nicobn, well, yes, once we hit 2.x we will see :P
ago 31 17:27:29 <nicobn>	yes well currently Jaws 2 needs a manager
ago 31 17:27:29 <PetrPulc>	even for past brances?
ago 31 17:27:42 <pabl0>	yes
ago 31 17:27:52 <PetrPulc>	how... lot of people..
ago 31 17:27:55 <nicobn>	well
ago 31 17:27:56 <pabl0>	I'd like to give that responsability to Ali
ago 31 17:28:03 <nicobn>	when a branch is dead, it's dead
ago 31 17:28:03 <pabl0>	he takes care a lot of last branches
ago 31 17:28:15 <pabl0>	nicobn, 0.7.x is not yet until we release 0.8 :)
ago 31 17:28:21 <nicobn>	PHP has a branch manager for PHP 4, PHP 6 and HEAD
ago 31 17:28:22 <AmirMohammad>	last branches or branch?
ago 31 17:28:35 <pabl0>	once we hit 0.8, 0.7 is dead
ago 31 17:28:41 <pabl0>	*branch sorry
ago 31 17:28:46 <pabl0>	nicobn, yes
ago 31 17:28:51 <pabl0>	I'd like to have that
ago 31 17:28:53 <nicobn>	err, PHP 4, PHP 5 and PHP 6
ago 31 17:28:56 <pabl0>	an Ilia :-)
ago 31 17:28:59 <nicobn>	so we have Ali for what branches ?
ago 31 17:29:06 <pabl0>	for 0.7 at least
ago 31 17:29:12 <nicobn>	ok
ago 31 17:29:15 <nicobn>	and me for 2.0
ago 31 17:29:21 <pabl0>	he have been contributing also to 0.8
ago 31 17:29:21 <nicobn>	who's for 1.0 ?
ago 31 17:29:25 <pabl0>	but I'll thikn about that
ago 31 17:29:33 <pabl0>	last branch is like documentation
ago 31 17:30:17 <nicobn>	ok
ago 31 17:30:22 <nicobn>	and what is the job of the branch manager ?
ago 31 17:30:28 <nicobn>	first of all, accept new karmas
ago 31 17:30:34 <pabl0>	noone wants to takes care of the last branch
ago 31 17:30:38 <nicobn>	second of all, decide when to release
ago 31 17:30:41 <AmirMohammad>	writing a nighly-build-producer-bash-script I suppose
ago 31 17:30:55 <nicobn>	and third, decide what makes it into the release and what doesn't
ago 31 17:31:05 <pabl0>	nicobn, yes
ago 31 17:31:06 <nicobn>	someone has any other tasks for the BM ?
ago 31 17:31:13 <pabl0>	nicobn, use the PEAR_Server 
ago 31 17:31:33 <nicobn>	what does it have to do with the BM ?
ago 31 17:31:46 <pabl0>	I think thos etasks should be discussed in the ML
ago 31 17:31:53 <pabl0>	not sure if jaws-dev or jaws-internals
ago 31 17:32:02 <pabl0>	maybe jaws-internals
ago 31 17:32:04 <pabl0>	sorry
ago 31 17:32:06 <pabl0>	jaws-private
ago 31 17:32:06 <pabl0>	:P
ago 31 17:33:09 <PetrPulc>	what about queued devs?
ago 31 17:33:29 <pabl0>	I'll try to push them with Mirco
ago 31 17:33:34 <nicobn>	yes
ago 31 17:33:39 <nicobn>	well
ago 31 17:33:43 <PetrPulc>	must they also go through karma system?
ago 31 17:33:45 <pabl0>	but that problem will still the same as longer we don't move to another server
ago 31 17:33:49 <nicobn>	they need to be voted with the new process with decided on
ago 31 17:33:50 <pabl0>	or Mirco helps more with that task
ago 31 17:33:58 <pabl0>	I'd like to keep with Mirco honestly
ago 31 17:34:04 <nicobn>	s/with/we/
ago 31 17:34:25 <AmirMohammad>	pabl0: wouldn't be that better if you make them sent patches to us before talking with Mirco? For the QA and mentoring stuff
ago 31 17:34:52 <AmirMohammad>	we'll commit those patches until we move to our own svn
ago 31 17:35:02 <nicobn>	yes
ago 31 17:35:04 <AmirMohammad>	meanwhile we evaluate them
ago 31 17:35:09 <pabl0>	yes
ago 31 17:35:13 <pabl0>	would be cool
ago 31 17:35:29 <Ali>	agree
ago 31 17:35:50 <imcsk8>	agree
ago 31 17:35:52 <pabl0>	and I'm agree
ago 31 17:35:59 <PetrPulc>	so i have to send patches of translation... pfff... ok...
ago 31 17:36:01 <pabl0>	that will be part of the evaluation process
ago 31 17:36:06 <pabl0>	PetrPulc, no
ago 31 17:36:09 <pabl0>	for translators no
ago 31 17:36:11 <nicobn>	translation, no
ago 31 17:36:15 <pabl0>	I think that would not work
ago 31 17:36:16 <nicobn>	developers, yes
ago 31 17:36:20 <pabl0>	but devels yes
ago 31 17:36:23 <PetrPulc>	ok than :)
ago 31 17:36:25 <pabl0>	:-)
ago 31 17:36:31 <nicobn>	good
ago 31 17:36:36 <pabl0>	but if you want to be a devel you can start sending patches
ago 31 17:36:41 <pabl0>	so I just give you more privileges
ago 31 17:36:45 <nicobn>	so we have a new process of selecting devs
ago 31 17:36:47 <pabl0>	to commit to gadgets/, include/ and so on
ago 31 17:36:51 <nicobn>	we discussed the tasks of BM
ago 31 17:37:02 <pabl0>	I think that's all for this point
ago 31 17:37:04 <nicobn>	something else ?
ago 31 17:37:07 <nicobn>	good, next point
ago 31 17:37:12 <PetrPulc>	ok
ago 31 17:37:14 <pabl0>	Jaws 1.x (changes, what should be changed, dropped improved)
ago 31 17:37:29 <pabl0>	no sorry
ago 31 17:37:45 <pabl0>	The end of Jaws 0.x
ago 31 17:37:45 <pabl0>	   1. Name of 0.x branch (Jaws Zero)
ago 31 17:37:53 <pabl0>	Ok, the end of Jaws 0.x is comming
ago 31 17:38:03 <pabl0>	very soon we wil release Jaws 0.8
ago 31 17:38:04 <PetrPulc>	Jaws-beta?
ago 31 17:38:16 <pabl0>	so only Jaws 0.9 and 0.xxxxxxxxxxxx is missing
ago 31 17:38:24 <Ali>	php4 in end of life
ago 31 17:38:31 <pabl0>	and php4 is over also.
ago 31 17:38:39 <pabl0>	beta sounds cool
ago 31 17:38:46 <Ali>	we must after 0.8.x switch to php5
ago 31 17:38:56 <pabl0>	but imho that would imply that next major releases (1.x and 2.x) use the same idea
ago 31 17:39:04 <PetrPulc>	Jaws 0.x -> Jaws$-1§²
ago 31 17:39:07 <pabl0>	and that wont be.. at least not for jaws2
ago 31 17:40:09 <PetrPulc>	so we'll have jaws2.99.99.99999 some day :)
ago 31 17:40:20 <pabl0>	the other option was Jaws Zero
ago 31 17:40:25 <pabl0>	like Sprite Zero :P
ago 31 17:40:30 <PetrPulc>	:D
ago 31 17:40:34 <imcsk8>	hahah
ago 31 17:40:45 <pabl0>	so, options to name the end of Jaws 0.0?
ago 31 17:40:58 <pabl0>	imcsk8, nicobn, PetrPulc, ion, AmirMohammad, Ali ?
ago 31 17:41:09 <nicobn>	jaws zero :-p
ago 31 17:41:12 <imcsk8>	jajaja
ago 31 17:41:20 <PetrPulc>	i thought about the $-1§²one
ago 31 17:41:27 <PetrPulc>	Jaws$-1§²
ago 31 17:41:51 <AmirMohammad>	Zero here
ago 31 17:42:02 <imcsk8>	Zero
ago 31 17:42:06 <PetrPulc>	but you are all right...
ago 31 17:42:08 <PetrPulc>	zero
ago 31 17:42:18 <pabl0>	ionathan?
ago 31 17:42:37 <Ali>	Jaws Pro
ago 31 17:42:39 <pabl0>	I think it's going to be Jaws Zero
ago 31 17:42:40 <pabl0>	lol
ago 31 17:43:04 <imcsk8>	hahaha
ago 31 17:43:13 <pabl0>	ok
ago 31 17:43:20 <pabl0>	ahh and another thing..
ago 31 17:43:31 <pabl0>	that all jaws devels should pay attention
ago 31 17:43:43 <pabl0>	once we hit Jaws 0.8, NO MORE NEW FEATURES/GADGETS will get added
ago 31 17:44:02 <ion>	:-O
ago 31 17:44:08 <PetrPulc>	it should be stable 4 ever...
ago 31 17:44:09 <pabl0>	0.9<->Zero development will be focused in enhancements
ago 31 17:44:10 <PetrPulc>	?
ago 31 17:44:10 <Ali>	:O
ago 31 17:44:10 <pabl0>	like speed
ago 31 17:44:12 <pabl0>	memory
ago 31 17:44:20 <ion>	Oh great
ago 31 17:44:26 <pabl0>	I'd like to have a REALLY REALLY stable release
ago 31 17:44:31 <pabl0>	with no more changes to the API
ago 31 17:44:39 <pabl0>	plp would thank us that
ago 31 17:45:12 <pabl0>	are you agree with this?
ago 31 17:45:15 <Ali>	we must enhance Jaws Layout
ago 31 17:45:19 <PetrPulc>	true
ago 31 17:45:21 <Ali>	it is necessary
ago 31 17:45:25 <pabl0>	Ali, then enhance it before 0.8
ago 31 17:45:26 <pabl0>	really
ago 31 17:45:45 <pabl0>	a change to the layout would require us to change some stuff in the API (HTML at least)
ago 31 17:45:49 <Ali>	it is big work
ago 31 17:45:51 <PetrPulc>	on ML there was some word about dynamic layout...
ago 31 17:46:03 <pabl0>	PetrPulc, yes, a Colin Ross post
ago 31 17:46:30 <ion>	changing layout implies change all the way themes work
ago 31 17:47:32 <ion>	maybe the layout UI must be based on current theme layout.html
ago 31 17:47:33 <pabl0>	yes
ago 31 17:47:42 <pabl0>	or.. is it REALLY needed?
ago 31 17:47:52 <pabl0>	I mean, if we don't change it on Jaws Zero, we have problems?
ago 31 17:47:56 <Ali>	Dynamic Layout, Layout interface for config instance of gadget and display for users gadget instance
ago 31 17:47:59 <pabl0>	We can work on it really hard on Jaws 1.x
ago 31 17:48:03 <AmirMohammad>	I'm OK with freezing API but not with dropping all the new stuff or such
ago 31 17:48:08 <AmirMohammad>	just if we start 1.x soonish
ago 31 17:48:17 <pabl0>	AmirMohammad, next point is about that :-)
ago 31 17:49:08 <Ali>	our layout weak, and we must enhance it before 1.x
ago 31 17:49:22 <pabl0>	I'm pretty sure a change to the layout would require a change to the api
ago 31 17:49:31 <PetrPulc>	me too
ago 31 17:49:42 <ion>	let's move layout stuff to 1.x
ago 31 17:49:55 <pabl0>	I'd like that
ago 31 17:50:02 <PetrPulc>	zero layout is I think usable for blogs or so...
ago 31 17:50:25 <pabl0>	that can be managed with the theme
ago 31 17:50:34 <pabl0>	I know would be cool if it's done via the UI
ago 31 17:50:53 <pabl0>	but if we have pretty good documentation we can help users with those tasks
ago 31 17:51:02 <PetrPulc>	sure
ago 31 17:51:09 <pabl0>	or apply some enhancements to the Layout
ago 31 17:51:11 <pabl0>	but not big ones
ago 31 17:51:14 <pabl0>	like the dynamic stuff
ago 31 17:51:54 *	pabl0 needs to go in 20min
ago 31 17:52:07 <PetrPulc>	i mentioned some of the easy to do improvement on ML
ago 31 17:52:20 <PetrPulc>	better use of top section..
ago 31 17:52:21 <pabl0>	PetrPulc, ok, We will check that
ago 31 17:52:27 <pabl0>	Ali, can you help me with it 
ago 31 17:52:28 <pabl0>	?
ago 31 17:52:33 <pabl0>	I'll work on that also
ago 31 17:52:48 <Ali>	yes
ago 31 17:53:02 <Ali>	i add it to layout
ago 31 17:53:09 <pabl0>	I'll do all possible enhancements as long we don't break the HTMLs
ago 31 17:53:26 <pabl0>	ion, can you help me with it also?
ago 31 17:53:34 <ion>	pabl0, yes, sure
ago 31 17:54:00 <pabl0>	ok
ago 31 17:54:02 <pabl0>	so for this point
ago 31 17:54:09 <AmirMohammad>	hey, I'm kinda slow, what you're going to do actually? I mean what enhancements?
ago 31 17:54:18 <pabl0>	1. Next major release will be Jaws Zero
ago 31 17:54:20 <AmirMohammad>	ok, jump to the next one
ago 31 17:54:30 <pabl0>	AmirMohammad, we can discuss that on the ML :)
ago 31 17:54:43 <AmirMohammad>	yeah, that's the reason I told jump
ago 31 17:54:49 <pabl0>	2. We will freeze the API and no BIG new features that require a change to the API
ago 31 17:55:08 <pabl0>	3. Work on the layout thingie as long we don't break the api or htmls
ago 31 17:55:11 <pabl0>	next one
ago 31 17:55:40 <pabl0>	# Jaws 1.x (changes, what should be changed, dropped improved)
ago 31 17:55:40 <pabl0>	   1. Full OOP support
ago 31 17:55:40 <pabl0>	   2. i18n formats (php arrays, defines, db, gettext, etc.)
ago 31 17:55:40 <pabl0>	   3. ORM (Doctrine?)
ago 31 17:55:40 <pabl0>	   4. How to handle Ajax and future technologies
ago 31 17:55:40 <pabl0>	   5. Piwi? HTML elements? Our 'own' library?
ago 31 17:55:54 <pabl0>	next major release will be Jaws 1.x
ago 31 17:56:07 <pabl0>	We will do a 'big' jump on this one
ago 31 17:56:20 <pabl0>	cause we will move to a real OOP framework (finally)
ago 31 17:56:44 <pabl0>	which PHP version? I've been reading the php-internals and there's a high probability to add namespaces to PHP 5.3
ago 31 17:57:05 <pabl0>	so I think 5.3 should be the minor PHP version required
ago 31 17:57:21 <pabl0>	I've been thinking we should take some ideas we have, that are working
ago 31 17:57:42 <pabl0>	and new ones that would help with speed
ago 31 17:57:44 <ion>	pabl0, so Jaws Zero will be using JPSPAN?
ago 31 17:58:03 <pabl0>	nicobn, can you continue a bit?
ago 31 17:58:06 <pabl0>	need to move my car :P
ago 31 17:58:10 <pabl0>	brb in 2min
ago 31 17:58:24 <nicobn>	ok
ago 31 17:59:17 <PetrPulc>	are you sure about the jpspan?
ago 31 18:00:02 <nicobn>	namespaces will probably be in 5.3 so we could use them
ago 31 18:00:38 <ion>	I want to remove JPSPAN and use the pear package
ago 31 18:01:04 <PetrPulc>	well, why not..
ago 31 18:01:33 <Ali>	in 0.9.x, probably we switch to pear package
ago 31 18:02:16 <AmirMohammad>	now, we won't :)
ago 31 18:02:22 <AmirMohammad>	that would break API
ago 31 18:02:43 <pabl0>	ah, about Jaws Zero
ago 31 18:02:48 <pabl0>	no
ago 31 18:02:52 <pabl0>	we will move to HTML_Ajax
ago 31 18:03:07 <pabl0>	however, cause we use Jawsajax as a wrapper
ago 31 18:03:13 <pabl0>	there's no need in changing the 'api'
ago 31 18:03:21 <Ali>	agree
ago 31 18:03:28 <AmirMohammad>	ok, then we do :P
ago 31 18:03:31 <pabl0>	at least I don't think that would break the api
ago 31 18:03:43 <pabl0>	AmirMohammad, or you want to handle that task on 0.8? :-)
ago 31 18:03:58 <AmirMohammad>	hehe :)
ago 31 18:04:00 <pabl0>	:P
ago 31 18:04:10 <AmirMohammad>	Do you really think Josh's package is ready?
ago 31 18:04:14 <AmirMohammad>	I don't think so
ago 31 18:04:33 <AmirMohammad>	HTML_AJAX I mean
ago 31 18:04:33 <pabl0>	I think the same.. but is the next version of jpspan
ago 31 18:04:53 <pabl0>	same author..
ago 31 18:05:05 <AmirMohammad>	hmm, sma author?
ago 31 18:05:13 <AmirMohammad>	s/sma/same/
ago 31 18:05:14 <pabl0>	also, someone posted the patch @ dev.jaws-project.com
ago 31 18:05:20 <pabl0>	AmirMohammad, yes iirc
ago 31 18:05:37 <pabl0>	also, someone posted the patch @ dev.jaws-project.com to move to HTML_Ajax
ago 31 18:05:44 <pabl0>	right Ali?
ago 31 18:05:52 <Ali>	yes
ago 31 18:05:59 <pabl0>	I'll do some tests this weekend
ago 31 18:06:05 <pabl0>	and see if the api doesn't break
ago 31 18:06:14 <pabl0>	(our api  I mean  :P)
ago 31 18:06:21 <pabl0>	now, about the i18n formats
ago 31 18:06:27 <PetrPulc>	ok
ago 31 18:06:29 <pabl0>	many discussions have been about that
ago 31 18:06:37 <pabl0>	if we should keep the same
ago 31 18:06:41 <nicobn>	we should wait until jaws 2 for i18n don't you think ?
ago 31 18:06:42 <pabl0>	the constants
ago 31 18:06:55 <pabl0>	I mean, the format we use for languages
ago 31 18:07:11 <pabl0>	not REAL unicode support
ago 31 18:07:15 <Ali>	current format is good
ago 31 18:07:20 <pabl0>	yes
ago 31 18:07:24 <pabl0>	and fast
ago 31 18:07:29 <Ali>	yes
ago 31 18:07:36 <pabl0>	I'd like to keep it
ago 31 18:07:46 <pabl0>	and I think we have a Language gadget
ago 31 18:07:48 <pabl0>	for the task
ago 31 18:07:53 <pabl0>	so that help us a LOT
ago 31 18:07:59 <PetrPulc>	format is good, but somewhere it should be needed to improve usagr
ago 31 18:08:08 <PetrPulc>	*usage
ago 31 18:08:09 <pabl0>	PetrPulc, for example?
ago 31 18:08:15 <PetrPulc>	numbers
ago 31 18:08:30 <PetrPulc>	i posted something on ML about this
ago 31 18:08:36 <pabl0>	femenines.. masculines..
ago 31 18:08:37 <pabl0>	neutrals
ago 31 18:08:39 <pabl0>	that one?
ago 31 18:08:41 <PetrPulc>	yes
ago 31 18:08:45 <pabl0>	yes, I'm agree
ago 31 18:08:46 <PetrPulc>	plurals
ago 31 18:08:57 <pabl0>	we should work REALLY hard on that
ago 31 18:09:07 <pabl0>	and dates (I think this part is almost ready by Ali)
ago 31 18:09:27 <nicobn>	with Jaws 2.0, this is integrated in PHP 6 FYI
ago 31 18:09:39 <pabl0>	but it's something we need
ago 31 18:09:44 <Ali>	i improve it in 0.9x(Date section)
ago 31 18:09:47 <PetrPulc>	Amir/Ali, does your language have more different plural forms than two?
ago 31 18:09:54 <pabl0>	then we can do it 'our' way, and in php6 use the php6 itself
ago 31 18:10:10 <pabl0>	PetrPulc, forget that, they write from right to left
ago 31 18:10:13 <pabl0>	that's crazy
ago 31 18:10:14 <pabl0>	:P
ago 31 18:10:14 <AmirMohammad>	PetrPulc: yep, more and more than two
ago 31 18:10:17 *	nicobn says yes
ago 31 18:10:22 <AmirMohammad>	hahha
ago 31 18:10:28 <PetrPulc>	ok than...
ago 31 18:10:28 <AmirMohammad>	GET OUT!
ago 31 18:10:31 <pabl0>	:-P
ago 31 18:10:46 *	pabl0 needs to leave in 10min..
ago 31 18:10:57 <PetrPulc>	it is than global problem :)
ago 31 18:11:05 <nicobn>	we can discuss the other, less important points later
ago 31 18:11:06 <PetrPulc>	(translation)
ago 31 18:11:11 <pabl0>	then
ago 31 18:11:17 <pabl0>	I'd like to use an ORM
ago 31 18:11:21 <pabl0>	I really love them
ago 31 18:11:27 <pabl0>	and I think that would be really usefull
ago 31 18:11:30 <pabl0>	for gadgets
ago 31 18:11:31 <nicobn>	Jaws 2 already uses Doctrine
ago 31 18:11:31 <pabl0>	and tables
ago 31 18:11:37 <nicobn>	so Jaws 1.x could use one
ago 31 18:11:45 <pabl0>	yes nicolas.. but we want also Doctrine :P
ago 31 18:11:45 <nicobn>	err s/one/Doctrine/
ago 31 18:12:09 <pabl0>	the other solution is Propel. which..
ago 31 18:12:10 <pabl0>	I like
ago 31 18:12:15 <pabl0>	but if we are going to use Doctrine
ago 31 18:12:16 <pabl0>	in jaws2
ago 31 18:12:20 <pabl0>	I think we should keep doctrine
ago 31 18:12:27 <pabl0>	and don't keep changing from one to another
ago 31 18:12:35 <pabl0>	also we can work together with Doctrine devels
ago 31 18:12:42 <pabl0>	like Nicolas did during summer of code :-)
ago 31 18:12:52 <nicobn>	exactly
ago 31 18:13:03 <nicobn>	(I'm a doctrine dev, also... that helps)
ago 31 18:13:10 <pabl0>	yep
ago 31 18:13:20 <AmirMohammad>	but nothing can beat pure SQL statements :)
ago 31 18:13:26 <nicobn>	yes
ago 31 18:13:28 <nicobn>	Doctrine can
ago 31 18:13:31 <pabl0>	well, doctrine supports SQL
ago 31 18:13:32 <pabl0>	iirc
ago 31 18:13:33 <nicobn>	;-)
ago 31 18:13:34 <pabl0>	direct SQL
ago 31 18:13:45 <nicobn>	doctrine supports direct SQL but also an abstraction language called DQL
ago 31 18:13:51 <pabl0>	at least propel does, so I'm pretty sure doctrine support it also
ago 31 18:13:54 <pabl0>	yep
ago 31 18:14:14 <nicobn>	instead of parsing SQL, Doctrine supports cascaded query writing, which skips the parsing and speeds things up
ago 31 18:14:15 <nicobn>	like
ago 31 18:14:25 <nicobn>	$query->select()->where()->sort()
ago 31 18:14:53 <pabl0>	so
ago 31 18:14:54 <Ali>	result?
ago 31 18:15:06 <PetrPulc>	doctrine
ago 31 18:15:11 <pabl0>	SELECT * FROM WHERE $where ORDER BY $sort
ago 31 18:15:15 <AmirMohammad>	so, the gains of doctrine or on an upper-level ORM stuff?
ago 31 18:15:39 <nicobn>	well, ORM in itself is a gain, imho
ago 31 18:15:43 <pabl0>	yes
ago 31 18:16:03 <AmirMohammad>	but imho abstraction is root of all evils
ago 31 18:17:06 <AmirMohammad>	we can keep this an using Doctrine, not going to be nosy
ago 31 18:17:12 <AmirMohammad>	just told my idea
ago 31 18:17:29 <nicobn>	we can support pretty much ANY db that exists with a DBAL like doctrine
ago 31 18:17:35 <AmirMohammad>	and yes, by keep I meant skip :P
ago 31 18:18:14 <pabl0>	that's another point
ago 31 18:18:20 <pabl0>	doctrine supports the most important DBAL
ago 31 18:18:24 <pabl0>	sorry
ago 31 18:18:26 <pabl0>	dBMS
ago 31 18:18:42 <nicobn>	and ORM is so useful
ago 31 18:18:47 <nicobn>	I can't do without it anymore :-p
ago 31 18:19:04 <pabl0>	guys, I need to leave..
ago 31 18:19:11 <pabl0>	for Jaws 1.x
ago 31 18:19:20 <pabl0>	I think we should have some UML diagrams before
ago 31 18:19:26 <pabl0>	the 'basic' skeleton
ago 31 18:19:29 <nicobn>	before pablo leaves, I also want to ask who wants to work on Jaws 2
ago 31 18:19:44 <pabl0>	I'd like but want to focus more in Jaws2
ago 31 18:20:09 <pabl0>	and from the ideas I've maybe apply some of them to Jaws 2
ago 31 18:20:12 <pabl0>	and not to Jaws 1
ago 31 18:20:40 <pabl0>	plp?
ago 31 18:20:47 <Ali>	i prefer Jaws 1.x
ago 31 18:20:50 <pabl0>	ok
ago 31 18:21:06 <nicobn>	I need some people who want to work on Jaws 2 !
ago 31 18:21:11 <nicobn>	anyone I'll send an invitation on the list
ago 31 18:21:12 <pabl0>	lol
ago 31 18:21:21 <pabl0>	and a post card of Canada
ago 31 18:21:22 <pabl0>	:P
ago 31 18:21:27 <nicobn>	yes:-p
ago 31 18:21:38 <PetrPulc>	I can help with l18n and l10n
ago 31 18:21:44 <AmirMohammad>	pabl0: ok, before you leave, I really need propose something for 1.x, we need to be able to response to different requests with different languages, I mean WebServices, and for the whole of Jaws management I mean, then we can have unlimited front-ends, that's damn sexy
ago 31 18:21:55 <AmirMohammad>	we've something already in 0.x, but that sucks
ago 31 18:22:04 <pabl0>	AmirMohammad, completetly agree
ago 31 18:22:09 <pabl0>	I think I talked with you about that
ago 31 18:22:27 <pabl0>	that's going to be included in Jaws 1.0 from it's first beta
ago 31 18:22:28 <AmirMohammad>	yeah, I really love that and want to take it over
ago 31 18:22:34 <pabl0>	if you want you can help with that part
ago 31 18:22:42 <pabl0>	okey =)
ago 31 18:23:09 <nicobn>	anyway, I'll send the summaries to the ML soon
ago 31 18:23:18 <nicobn>	and some infos about Jaws 2 
ago 31 18:23:25 <nicobn>	we need people to work on Jaws 2 asap...
ago 31 18:23:44 <pabl0>	nicobn, if you want we can continue with next points
ago 31 18:23:47 <pabl0>	on another meeting
ago 31 18:24:03 <nicobn>	especially for Jaws 2
ago 31 18:24:07 <nicobn>	that will be important
ago 31 18:24:12 <pabl0>	one of the reasons I preffer to leave now is to have lot of time to discuss jaws2 and the next gsoc
ago 31 18:24:28 <pabl0>	ok?
ago 31 18:24:31 <ion>	ok
ago 31 18:24:33 <AmirMohammad>	ok
ago 31 18:24:33 <pabl0>	I'll connect @ night
ago 31 18:24:34 <Ali>	ok
ago 31 18:24:38 <PetrPulc>	ok
ago 31 18:24:38 <pabl0>	and prepare some summaries
ago 31 18:24:39 <pabl0>	see ya!
ago 31 18:24:44 <PetrPulc>	bye
ago 31 18:24:47 <AmirMohammad>	here is already night :P
ago 31 18:24:50 <pabl0>	plp leaving me alone in the office
ago 31 18:24:52 <AmirMohammad>	morning though
ago 31 18:24:53 <Ali>	good night
ago 31 18:24:53 <pabl0>	lol
ago 31 18:24:58 <pabl0>	see ya then!
ago 31 18:25:02 <AmirMohammad>	take care
ago 31 18:25:09 <nicobn>	good, see ya
ago 31 18:25:20 <nicobn>	I gotta go also
ago 31 18:25:23 <nicobn>	'night
ago 31 18:25:25 <AmirMohammad>	ok, I've logged the meeting
ago 31 18:25:32 <AmirMohammad>	do I should upload it somewhere?
ago 31 18:25:34 <nicobn>	good, can you send me the log ?
ago 31 18:25:41 <nicobn>	nicobn@php.net
ago 31 18:25:45 <AmirMohammad>	ok
ago 31 18:25:46 <pabl0>	yep
ago 31 18:25:50 <pabl0>	lemme send it to you now
ago 31 18:26:13 <AmirMohammad>	mine is better :P
ago 31 18:26:27 *	_ke (n=dgsiegel@host149-105-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) ha entrado en #jaws
ago 31 18:26:40 <pabl0>	:P
ago 31 18:27:18 <PetrPulc>	so anyone will stay here to discuss other points or we will end with pabl0 leaveing
ago 31 18:27:31 <PetrPulc>	*leaving
ago 31 18:27:57 <AmirMohammad>	Sat Sep  1 02:57:47 IRST 2007
ago 31 18:27:58 <AmirMohammad>	:)
ago 31 18:28:08 <AmirMohammad>	what do you think PetrPulc ?
ago 31 18:28:26 <pabl0>	lol
ago 31 18:28:33 <pabl0>	we will continue the meeting another day
ago 31 18:28:35 <PetrPulc>	1:28:40
ago 31 18:28:40 <PetrPulc>	am
ago 31 18:28:41 <pabl0>	I want all of you to hear the jaws2 ideas
ago 31 18:28:44 <pabl0>	and the next gsoc
ago 31 18:28:48 <pabl0>	it's getting better!
ago 31 18:28:54 <PetrPulc>	:)
ago 31 18:28:55 <pabl0>	see ya!
ago 31 18:28:58 <pabl0>	nicobn, I sent you the log
ago 31 18:28:59 <pabl0>	see ya
ago 31 18:29:01 <pabl0>	!!!!!
ago 31 18:29:04 <PetrPulc>	byz
ago 31 18:29:07 <pabl0>	good night/morning everyone!
ago 31 18:29:12 <AmirMohammad>	:)
ago 31 18:29:16 <PetrPulc>	good bye